KIM WALKER-SMITH and the JESUS CULTURE CONTROVERSY

from Part I of "Discerning a Gnostic conference called "Passion 2013," Louie Giglio "

Kim Walker-Smith [Notice her hyphenated name, and readGenesis 2:24] is a part of the Jesus Culture Band. She is part of a home church called Bethel Church in Redding CA. Smith is a worship leader and/or a "worship pastor" at that same church, whichteaches heresies. On her church page she is listed as as "a passionate worship leader with an anointing to bring an entire generation into an encounter with God." I'm impressed. The Apostles didn't even have such an anointing.

At a conference called 'Awakening 2011' Smith shared with the audience a vision she said she had. It was an experience of cuddling with Jesus [glorified, in Heaven, for that is where Christ now resides], and God [also in Heaven] was nearby too. She said her vision buoyed her and she lives off it, explaining, "I live off of the encounter ... until the next one." Yet the bible says “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (Matthew 4:4). This means we don't live just in the flesh and for the flesh (having adrenaline rushed encounters) but we live by His word.

The problem that comes from living from encounter to encounter is three-fold: first, we live by His word as the bible commands, not by experiences. Second, human nature requires ever bigger rushes. The last one has to be topped. It is the Law of Diminishing returns for an adrenaline junkie. Adrenaline junkies seek encounters or experiences in which a high is produced by epinephrine released by the adrenal gland. It produces a fight-or-flight response (one which Ms Smith admits she felt during each of the encounters she described). The problem is that each 'high' has to be succeeded by one with more oomph in order to achieve the same effect. It seems like it would be an upward spiral but it is really a downward one. Third, what happens when the encounters stop? They do and they will. After each high, there is a low. What will sustain her faith then? If you live by the word, it will never pass away. (Matthew 24:35).

Here is a bit of what Mrs Smith said regarding her encounter with Jesus and God:

"This is not a normal thing for me, to have these encounters." But then later she said "I live off of the encounter ... until the next one." We know from the bible that several righteous men encountered Jesus as He is glorified, but they are few. Few. Isaiah, Ezekiel, Paul, and John were lifted up and saw Him in heaven. Of those four, three were allowed to relate a small bit of what they saw and Paul was commanded not to speak of it at all. Peter saw a transfigured Christ on earth, Paul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus and Moses encountered God atop Mt Sinai.

In comparing her experience with the ones above from the bible, the two experiences are dramatically different. I'll summarize what Mrs Walker-Smith has said in her video testimony. Then we will compare her experience to those who experienced God from the bible's record:

In her vision, she said she saw Jesus and God behind Him. God beckoned for her to come closer. When she did, two questions popped into her mind that she wanted to ask Jesus. One was "How much do you love me, and the other was "What were you thinking when you created me?"

In answering her question as to how much Jesus loved her, Smith said he started stretching out his arms, and it looked like Stretch Armstrong, the superhero cartoon character "whose arms and legs could stretch out like spaghetti noodles. And He's laughing hysterically."

A person entering the presence of God and Jesus would become immediately insensate & insensible. But Mrs Smith remained conscious enough in her own flesh to ask Jesus to 'tell me about me.' Then she likens him to a cartoon character, and says he laughed hysterically. Hysterical laughter is out-of-control laughter, and Jesus is never out of control.

The bible tells us that if you were one of the FEW men to have seen heaven while still alive that what you see is unlawful to express. (2 Corinthians 12:4). But if directed to tell, the visionary must use many symbols and metaphors to try and get the point across because the scene is so incomprehensible. The writer uses exalted metaphors to convey the inexpressible beauty and holiness of the scene. The writers did not use everyday toys and cartoon characters to convey the scene, in no way is that appropriate. The metaphors themselves that John or Ezekiel used for example were 'hair white like wool, eyes like a flame, feet like bronze', (Revelation 1) 'a brightness all around Him...like a bow in the sky.' (Ezekiel 1:27-28).

After Daniel's visions of the Ancient of Days, he became "distressed, alarmed and dismayed." (Daniel 7:15). That sounds bad enough, but the Hebrew says the word alarmed means active suffering and piercing grief. (Strong's). Yet in Mrs Smith's visions she giggled like a schoolgirl and cuddled in Jesus' arms while God roamed around nearby.

Mrs Smith said that she had wanted to ask Jesus two questions but in that first vision had only asked one. She continued in her sharing of her now second vision in which the unasked question was answered: "What were you thinking when you made me". She said that a few months later she was watching the sun come up early in the morning. "I like to watch the sun come up, which is a miracle in itself ... because I am not a morning person." Oh wait, I thought she was going to praise the creator. 

"Again, I felt the presence of the Lord, and I felt like He wanted me to ask that question. Jesus is like, 'Please, please ask me that question.' And again he said, 'Please, please ask me that question."

The scene she describes here is of a begging Jesus. It continues: 

Smith said she's now standing with Jesus. In front of her is God the father. Jesus's got a table, and He reaches into His body and clutches his heart and rips a chunk off His heart and throws it on the table... he fashions her out of a clay or play-dough like substance, puts her into a ballerina music box where she begins dancing, and then Jesus begins shouting "who hooooo" while running around with his arms up, continually going around, "woo hoo!" in circles, running around a bunch of times. Smith said he looked like a jack in the box.

"Then I'm in the palm of the Father's hand...and I see His heart and the outline of his heart and the outline is the chunk he ripped out and he slides me into His heart like a puzzle piece and it's a perfect fit. Smith said Jesus told her, "I made you because you make me happy." 

A few days ago, I wrote about the Therapeutic Gospel. I noted how the Gnostic changes the emphasis of the Gospel from the work of Jesus to our own worth. I'd said:

The Therapeutic Gospel does something else that's devastating. It leads us to believe that it is our worth that motivates God's action to save us. The thinking is, Jesus came to save us because we are so valuable to God. ... A good example comes from comparing two parables.
Pastor Wax compares the subtle shift in a counterfeit Gospel from being Christ-centered to man-centered, by comparing the parable of the sheep as they are presented in Luke and in the false Gospel of Thomas. Here is the Gospel of Luke:

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (Luke 15:4-7)

The other is from the non-canonical, false Gospel of Thomas.

"Jesus said, "The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine sheep and looked for that one until he found it. When he had gone to such trouble, he said to the sheep, 'I care for you more than the ninety-nine.'" (FALSE, NON-CANONICAL “Gospel of Thomas”)

What has happened here, said Pr. Wax, is that in the counterfeit Gnostic gospel the point of the parable in the counterfeit is about the worth of the sheep, instead of the work of the Shepherd.

Jesus did not create us because it made Him happy. He made humans so as to bring HIM glory. (Romans 11:36). Do you see the exact Gnostic emphasis that is present in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas is also in Smith's vision? It was the worth of Kim Walker-Smith that caused Jesus to make her? And in so doing brought Jesus a measure of happiness he had not had before?

This is not possible. It does not line up with the scriptures and if it does not line up with scripture, it is false.

In looking at the biblical record of people who were lifted to heaven or saw Jesus glorified, we compare their reactions with Kim Walker-Smith's. For example, Isaiah- 

Isaiah said, "And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" (Isaiah 6:5)

"Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking." (Ezekiel 1:28b)
FULL ARTICLE HERE

Jesus Culture 2012 Conference Review - Video Interview, Los Angeles

What is taught at Jesus Culture Conferences?
What is learned by those who attend?

Banning Liebscher, Bill Johnson, and other Jesus Culture leaders preach "revival", "spreading the message", "signs and wonders", an "open heaven," and a "billion soul harvest. "

Are these things the real deal?

Do they preach Jesus Christ and His gospel?

What is happening to those who are attending?

This interviewer took his camera to the Jesus Culture Conference in Los Angeles in August 2012, to learn what Jesus Culture followers are learning, then to examine this in light of the Scriptures.

May you be edified, challenged, and grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ: 

Exposing the Darkness at Bethel Church - Have no Part With it

 

GRACE UNDER FIRE

Birds of a Feather Flock Together: Strange Manifestations in 'Christian' Circles - from God or not? Feathers in Church? Bill Johnson of Bethel Church, Redding California...

by Anne Heers

"...for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness"? (2 Corinthians 6:14)  

In chapter 12 of When Heaven Invades Earth: A Practical Guide to a Life of Miracles, Bill Johnson, Senior Pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California writes:

I have seen the small gems that suddenly appeared in the people's hands as they worshipped God. Since early in 1998, we have had feathers fall in our meetings. At first I thought birds were getting into our air conditioning ducts, but then they started falling in other rooms of the church not connected with the same ductwork. They now fall most anywhere we go - airports, homes, restaurants, offices and the like...He [God] wants to take us farther, and we can only get there by following signs. Our present understanding of scripture can only take us so far. (Page 204,205)

Johnson convinces people that these signs are from God and the Holy Spirit and our present understanding of scripture cannot take us far enough. On the same pages, he says that laughter, gold dust, oil and a cloud (appearing in the church building) are also signs of God's presence. He further explains in the same chapter that these signs and manifestations "are simple indicators of God's presence and purpose". He calls these signs God's "personal notes" to us. He clearly links these signs to our holy God and the Holy Spirit.

But are they? In scripture, believers are commanded to be scrutinizing (not blindly accepting) by putting what they see and hear to the test instead of accepting a teaching, sign or wonder right away, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

Are all signs from God? Clearly scripture teaches that the apostles did signs and wonders. God is still powerful just like He was back then: "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders done among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch" (Acts 5:12).

However, scripture also contains warnings about following signs and wonders: "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12). “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him" (Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

Johnson preaches this about Jesus: "He laid his divinity aside" (When Heaven Invades Earth; chapter 7; page 110). Johnson also preaches that Jesus did His miracles as a man and not as God. Remember in John 10:30 when Jesus said, "I and the Father are one"? What about the immaculate conception and the virgin birth? That was divine, so Jesus had to be divine since conception, even before that - and forever for that matter! In an article from Charisma Magazine dated February 23, 2012, Johnson writes: "While Jesus is eternally God, He emptied Himself of His divinity and became a man...it’s vital to note that He did all His miracles as a man, not as God. If He did them as God, I would still be impressed. But because He did them as a man yielded to God, I am now unsatisfied with my life, being compelled to follow the example He has given us. Jesus is the only model for us to follow". The proof text he gives is Philippians 2:7 (which does not state that Christ's divine nature ceased, but basically that Jesus humbly became a servant despite His divinity).

Is this the same Jesus of the Bible that is preached here - a Jesus who was a non-divine man? I personally believe that Jesus was and is always divine in nature and never ceased to be divine in nature and one with God (because God is divine) for a split second. If someone is divine, it is in their nature and cannot be changed. Divinity cannot be laid aside or stopped. I am human in nature, and I cannot lay that aside. Jesus was and always will be divine in nature, so how could He lay His divine nature aside as He has always been divine, Godhead and deity forever?

Interestingly, there are no records of feathers falling on the apostles in the Bible, though this is an occurence happening in occultic religions and practices. According to a new age ministry calledKrysalis Training Academy, which supports the Dalai Lama, psychic practices, reiki, new age spiritual healing, hypnotherapy, eastern meditation, shamanism, wicca, mysticism and more - feathers are indeed a sign.

Angels often send us little reminders of their presence as angel feathers, which are small white feathers. These seem to appear from nowhere when we are down and in need of comfort. I remember sitting in a café, watching the rain falling on the pavement outside and feeling blue. Suddenly, a small white feather floated down in front of me and landed on my table. I smiled, knowing the angels were around me, with their comforting presence.

Feathers falling - from God or not? As we see here, feathers do appear as signs from other spirits of the occult.

The Apostle Paul spoke in 2 Corinthians 11:4 on "another Jesus" and "another spirit". Could this be?

Another peculiar manifestation in professed Christian circles these days are uncontrolled animal sounds, laughing and drunkenness. Bill Johnson endorses John and Carol Arnott (Catch the Fire Ministries and Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship) on his own website's friend list. In fact, Johnson and the Arnott's are together having an upcoming conference in the UK in August 2012 called theRevival Alliance Conference. The Arnott's promote jungle and barnyard animal sounds as a manifestation from the Holy Spirit on their official website. Interestingly, we do not see any apostles being "overcome" by a lack of self-control with animals sounds in the entire history of Christianity nor from our plumbline, the Word of God (remember, self-control is the fruit of the Spirit, not a loss of self-control; see Galatians 5:22).

According to the same occultic ministry mentioned above, animal sounds are characteristic of spirits of shamanism.

The Arnott's, friends of Johnson, explain:

The Toronto Blessing is a transferable anointing. In its most visible form itovercomes worshippers with outbreaks of laughter, weeping, groaning, shaking, falling, 'drunkenness,' and even behaviours that have been described as a 'cross between a jungle and a farmyard.' Of greater significance, however, are the changed lives.

Bill Johnson attributes these manifestations to the Holy Spirit when he states:

Our new list includes falling, shaking, laughing, etc...we must learn to recognize his move by recognizing his presence. (When Heaven Invades Earth; chapter 12; page 205)

The Apostle Paul said that if all spoke in tongues and an unbeliever walked in, they would think everyone was crazy (and turn around and walk right out!). "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1 Corinthians 14:23; NIV). Are these manifestations from God? If you walked into a church and one or more people were barking uncontrollably like a dog, hissing like a snake, moo-ing like a cow, or jumping around like a monkey, would you stay to hear the message? What would God say about this? What about the Apostle Paul? Some things to ponder.

The Apostle Paul said, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:12-17).

Have you ever looked up the Greek meaning for seducers ('imposters')? This word is translated from the Greek word "góēs". Here is how the HELPS Word-studies defines the word 'imposter':

Originally, a sorcerer (in ancient Greek literature); in New Testament times, 1114 (góēs) is a swindler – a shameless cheat pretending to use supernatural power; an actor (cheap imposter), looking for self-gain, i.e. posing to be someone he isn't. "A charlatan", used only in 2 Tim 3:13, refers to a seducer (properly, a wailer) – a fraud who "sounds off" like a whining enchanter. This person uses their verbal spells and incantations to give the (false) impression they can do miracles.

Are these signs and wonders from the real Jesus and the real Holy Spirit? Or is this another Jesus and another spirit bringing "lying signs and wonders" as prophesied? What do you think? I know what I think, and that is based upon the scriptures.

Thanks for reading.

Jesus Culture :: A False Jesus, A False Gospel

Bill Johnson is the lead pastor of Bethel Church, in Redding, California. Bethel is the sending church for Jesus Culture, and a frequent key speaker at their conferences. 


(Read FULL ARTICLE HERE. Some reformatting has been done for clarity, and some comments from the article as of this posting have been left in for instruction. These are common objections and well-responded to by the author and commentors. )


It is with great sadness that I write this analysis of Bill Johnson’s book, When Heaven Invades Earth. I do pray for him and other pastors who teach these things. I also pray for those in their churches. There are people I love dearly sitting in their pews. Throughout the book and the teachings I’ve heard, there are many things I disagree with (doctrines such as healing in the atonement, the anointing, impartation, dominion theology). Instead of trying to refute every point, I’ve tried to identify some of the more significant errors.

View of Jesus

Bill Johnson plucks John 5:19 out of its context saying of Jesus, “the Son can do nothing.” He basically claims that Jesus laid aside all of His godly attributes and had only human attributes and abilities. In the history of the church, this teaching has been identified as a heresy called kenoticism. Johnson teaches that Jesus was completely powerless needed to be anointed by the Holy Spirit to perform miracles (p79). I found this confusing believing that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one. Johnson also said that “the Holy Spirit revealed the Father to Jesus” (p80). I don’t see this anywhere in Scripture. On the contrary, Jesus asserts, “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30) and also, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?” (John 14:9-10). Why would Jesus need the Father to be revealed to Him if they are one?

Johnson’s purpose behind this view of Christ is to show that a believer can do everything Jesus did. His reasoning is as follows: Jesus had no sin to separate Him from the Father and He was completely dependent on the Holy Spirit’s power. Since Christ’s sacrifice has removed the barrier of our sin, now nothing separates us, we only have to depend on the Holy Spirit. While it is true that Christ’s sacrifice has sufficiently dealt with our sin, I don’t think He went to the cross so that we could operate in the miraculous but rather because of God’s great justice and mercy. The penalty needed to be paid for our sin. We could never pay it. He paid it for us to reconcile us to Himself. And although I am holy and blameless in His sight, covered in the righteousness of Christ, while I am still in this earthly tent, I am still a sinner. I await the day when I will be in my glorified state but until then I cannot be compared to the sinless Jesus.
The Gospel

My greatest concern with the teaching of Bill Johnson and Bethel Church in Redding is that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are not central to their message. It appears that the cross and the empty tomb are just a means to an end - namely, operating in the miraculous. I fear they may be preaching a different gospel.

“Salvation was not the ultimate goal of Christ’s coming… [The ultimate goal] was to fill each born again person with the Holy Spirit.” (Johnson, p71)

“This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.” (1 Timothy 1:15)

“The gospel is the story of the Father wooing the hearts of mankind through His love.” (Johnson, p101)
“The present day understanding of preaching the gospel of the Kingdom means to preach a message that will bring as many people to conversion as possible. But what did preaching the kingdom mean to Jesus? Every instance in which He either did it or commanded it, miracles followed.” (Johnson, p185)

Jesus summed up His message with these words: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” (John 3:16-18)

“Through the shedding of His blood, it would be possible for everyone who believed on His name to do as He did and become as He was. This meant then that every true believer would have access to the realm of life that Jesus lived in.” (Johnson, p138)

“…the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Without [signs and wonders/miracles], the world suffers, God is grieved, and we are the most to be pitied” (Johnson, p119)
“We are most to be pitied if we think we’ve reached the fullness of what god intended for His Church here on earth.” (Johnson p186)

“And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.” 1 Corinthians 15:17-20)


“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:6-9)

View of Suffering

Johnson teaches that a loving Father would not allow His children to suffer. According to him, a good God would not allow sickness for a greater purpose. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:7-9, “So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”

On page 48 of his book, Bill Johnson uses Hebrews 11 as a summary of faith. He fails to include those who by faith “were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated--” (Hebrews 11: 35-37). Throughout history God’s people have always endured hardship and persecution. A good God is one who upholds and strengthens His own in the midst of suffering so that He is glorified by doing so.

Biblical Interpretation

There are basic rules of interpreting the Bible that I think are very important. For example, verses must be interpreted in their context. We also must understand what message was being conveyed at the specific time and to a specific people. A text can never mean what it never meant…in its original context. (See page 65 and Joshua 1:3). I also have concerns with Bill Johnson’s hermeneutics on a different level. I affirm that we do need the Holy Spirit to reveal the truths of the Bible to us and we do need to lay aside our presuppositions and let God speak to us through His word. But Johnson goes beyond that and places a subjective prophetic word over the straightforward meaning of Bible passages. Of course he would say that the Bible has the ultimate authority but I haven’t seen that principle practiced. The result: (1) relativism - to me this verse means…and (2) a new form of popery - the great Reformation principle of sola scriptura is cast aside and the prophet/teacher’s interpretation is the new standard.

Discernment

One great danger spread throughout this book is the equating of discernment with fear. Bill Johnson is quick to defend himself against those who question his teachings. The apostle Paul commended the Bereans for searching the Scriptures to see if what he said was true. Those who are concerned about being deceived and hesitant to sign on are condemned as full of fear (which is viewed as the worst possible thing). In order not to fall victim to fear, all are encouraged jump in unreservedly.
“For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” (Mat 24:24)

COMPLAINTS:

seeker3 said...

What false teachers often do is take some CONSEQUENCES of the gospel and make that the gospel INSTEAD.

For Brian Houston (Hillsong, Australia) that becomes: “Jesus came so that we can be worldly successful in business, leadership, possessions and money.”

For Bill Johnson it becomes: “Jesus came so that we can do supernatural miracles”

The Devil tried to entice Jesus (after the fast in the desert) to do supernatural things or get involved in worldly kingdoms – see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%204:1-13;&version=31;

The Devil is trying the same enticement to Christians through people like Bill Johnson, Brian Houston, Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, etc.

9:10 PM

Anonymous said...

While in no way am I defending Bill Johnson, I would encourage people to read the chapter "Is Kenosis Orthodox?" in the 2006 book EXPLORING KENOTIC CHRISTIANITY (most of the chapter is available on books.google.com). The book is a collection of works by scholars from various theological traditions and the Reformed view is presented as well.

12:23 PM

Glenn said...

I am so relieved to come across an honest and biblical critique of Bill Johnson's teaching. I have just finished reading a copy of his latest book 'The Supernatural power of a transformed mind' that a friend insist I read. It is simply a further elaboration of the same distorted gospel that permeates 'When heaven invades earth.' Johnson continues to ramp up his theory that Jesus was a little less than divine when he ministered. Bill's commitment to the kenosis theory seems to be for the purpose of elevating man to a level where everything depends on what we do or say. God becomes a little less sovereign and we become a little more omnipotent. It all gets subtly packed in around 'testimonies and stories', so the enthusiastic Christian can easily get swept along if they don't take the time to slow down and evaluate the warped doctrine behind it all. This type of teaching deserves to be challenged as it damages the true gospel and builds a hollow faith that tends to minimise the cross and salvation. I'm concerned at the impact I can see it having in my own church as people seem to become dogmatic about defending Johnson rather than weighing his teachings against scripture in context. Your review is very insightful Bob. Thanks.

6:17 AM

Anonymous said...

I love the book! If Jesus didn't operate fully as a man(Eph 2:7,8)under the power of the Holy Spirit, then there is no atonement. That is the whole point. He lived a perfect life for us, in our place. Then died on the cross for us, in our place. How would it be a "substitutionary" atonement if Jesus didn't do it strictly as a man? (Heb 4:15)

10:31 PM

Bob said...

Anonymous-
Jesus is the God man, He was made altogether like us in human flesh, He felt pain, He got tired, He grew up from infancy etc this is all true. However, to leave it there as Johnson seems to is not the WHOLE truth. Orthodox Christiainity through all ages has affirmed while the above is true in regard to Christ's human nature, it is equally true that Christ is also fully Divine in nature. All of the creeds have affirmed this doctrine and it is summed up in the phrase, Christ is both fully man and fully God, one person with two seperate and distinct natures.

With that said, what you said about the atonement is indeed true, it just isn't the whole truth. Jesus needed to take on human flesh so He could die (God can't die remember). Yet, and this is the error, Johnson wants to assert that in taking on flesh Jesus also took off Divinity. Johnson does this because he wants us to see Jesus more as our model for supernatural life than the most exceptional Person ever.

Thus, in Johnson's zeal for making supernatural signs and wonders an everday Christian thing he tosses the Divine nature of Christ making Him our entirely immitatable example. It is true that Christ is our example, but again not the whole truth. This is because He also had Divine attributes and a calling (Messiah) that none of us share in.

I must add on the calling aspect that the signs Christ performed in His earthly ministry were confirmatory in nature in regard to His messiahship and message (gospel). That is why He could tell John the Baptist when asked by John "are you the one?" Jesus replied, "The dead are raised the sick are healed..." In short Jesus said "You see the signs don't you?" This again mitigates our ability to immitate as the signs performed by the Messiah and His apostles were intended to be unique confirming their ministry and the new covenant gospel message. Thus, they would hardly be unique and confirmatory if Bill Johnson is correct and these things are to be going on all the time.

I am not saying that these things can not and do not happen today, but I am saying that the particular manifestation of signs and wonders under the ministry of Christ and the apostles was unique, and that was the point.

Sorry for the brevity, but those are the 2 things to take into consideration. 1. Christ did not dump His divinity at the incarnation, and 2. Signs and wonders performed by the Messiah and His apostles would hardly be confirming of their message if signs and wonders were a normal everyday thing. That's what makes them signs (pointer to something) and wonders (an unusual occurance)after all.

9:42 AM

Bob said...

Also, and this is so huge I feel bad for neglecting to add it as it is the most important point, it would be impossible for one mere man to die for the sins of even one man substitutionarily let alone many men. Jesus couldn't have done that strictly as a man, the dying part yes, the substitution no, He needed to be fully God as well to bear all the sins of me, let alone billions of others. Only God can placate God's wrath both being infinite.

9:59 AM

Craig said...

A previous comment referenced Evans’ Exploring Kenotic Christology. I have the book and here’s a synopsis of Davis’ essay “Is Kenosis Orthodox?” In short, the answer is “no.” Davis attempts to distinguished between ‘essential’ and ‘accidental’ divine attributes with the ‘omni’ traits merely ‘accidental’ such that God is, for example, “omnipotent-unless-freely-and-temporarily-choosing-to-be-otherwise.” Of course, this denies immutability, but Davis gets around this by claiming it’s merely “soft immutability” and the Word, of course, subsequently re-attains all the ‘omni’ attributes upon Ascension. Essentially, Davis has redefinedGod. However, both John 2:19 and 10:17-18 indicate that Jesus was in fact omnipotent as He raised Himself on the Third Day. [In fact, the entire Trinity was involved in the Resurrection as other Scripture attests.] That’s the real crux (pun intended) of the matter. Moreover, the Word must have retained and utilized omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience in order to sustain the cosmos [cf. Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:3]. Thus, kenosis theories are insupportable by Scripture consequently, as such, they are by definition unorthodox and I would contend heresy.

You can read more here:

http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/kenosis-christology-and-bill-johnson-part-i/

http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/kenosis-christology-and-bill-johnson-part-ii/

5:30 PM

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Anonymous said...

1 Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cushite wife, for he had married a Cushite. 2 “Has the LORD spoken only through Moses?” they asked. “Hasn’t he also spoken through us?” And the LORD heard this.

3 (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)

4 At once the LORD said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, “Come out to the tent of meeting, all three of you.” So the three of them went out. 5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, 6 he said, “Listen to my words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?”

9 The anger of the LORD burned against them, and he left them.

To everyone hating on Bill Johnson - You are naive to talk against God's servant.

"Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

This forum and others like it are utter rubbish. What is the point of hating on men and women of God who walk with God daily? You're only fighting against God himself.

I ask how many of you here posting negative comments about Bill do as Jesus commanded us and "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." Not only are we to do these, but dare to refute Jesus himself when He says: "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

Even if Bill does have some bits of theology wrong (I'm not at all backing your statements) since He is living and growing in Christ won't God give him revelation on these if what he currently preaches is destroying God's church?

Anyway have a good day everyone!

9:34 PM

Bob said...

This forum and others like it are utter rubbish. What is the point of hating on men and women of God who walk with God daily? You're only fighting against God himself. -Anonymous

Well that's begging the question, I can't see Bill's personal relationship with God but I wouldn't put him in the same catagory as Moses. We are called to test all things, rather than just suspend our discernment. Here's one that will throw you for a loop, I walk with God daily too...I disagree with Bill Johnson...whose side are you on? Why is your criticism of me not fighting against God like my criticism of Bill?

Is Bill more of a Christian than me? Why is he untouchable but I am not?

"Even if Bill does have some bits of theology wrong (I'm not at all backing your statements) since He is living and growing in Christ won't God give him revelation on these if what he currently preaches is destroying God's church?"

God takes teaching error far more seriously than you seem to think He should. God gave His entire church the final revelation in scripture, I don't need men and their private conversations with God I have a Bible as my authority. Bill has that as well, he is in no need of some private word from God saying, "Hey Bill, you are teaching error..." That's the Bible's job and that was the point of the post, a Biblical examination of the teachings of Mr.Johnson.

9:38 AM